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gorr4247
Hi all,

Last week I was driving through an unfamiliar part of London and my sat nav (darn things!) directed me down a bus only road - Lewisham High St between Albion Way and Limes Grove.

I believe the road markings are pretty much non existent here as both me and my colleague saw the 'Bus lane in 240 yards' sign (Diagram 953?) but neither of us noticed we were entering the bus lane until we were well down it. I was expecting to see 'BUS LANE' (diagram 1048) at the start of it but there was no sign of this, or a solid white line, or any clear markings warning people what they were entering.

Yes there are signs further back down Lewisham High St (if approaching from Lewis Grove). (2x Diagram 953?). If you were to approach from Albion Way and turn left there would be no warning at all that I can see except a small white 'Bus Lanes' sign on the Junction at the beginning of the bus lane and Albion Way.

I remember there being NO road markings whatsoever at the start of the bus only section of road and google backs me up on this.

Google Maps
(this is from June this year at the start of the bus only section of road)

I'd be grateful if someone could spend a minute or two looking at this for me and advising whether or not its worth appealing and as to the wording of any appeal.

Thanks
Bagshot
QUOTE (gorr4247 @ Fri, 23 Oct 2015 - 17:10) *
If you were to approach from Albion Way and turn left there would be no warning at all that I can see except a small white 'Bus Lanes' sign on the Junction at the beginning of the bus lane and Albion Way.

Prior to that are no through road signs on both sides of the road, which gives you a clue.

Which way did you approach it from?
Incandescent
I see the sign indicating buses only ahead, all other traffic to turn left, but cannot see any of the entry signs, and GSV doesn't have photos of this street. So have far down are they ? They must be at the start of the buses-only road
gorr4247
Bagshot: I approached from Lewis Grove.

Incandescent: There are definitely NO road markings/signs at the entry to the bus only road. There is a sign 110 yards before (which to be fair I missed), but nothing thereafter either on the road/pavement signs.

Do you guys think I have a case, or should I just pay up?

Thanks
Incandescent
The sign you saw, (plus me via GSV), is an advance sign and does not define the start of the restriction, indeed it cannot, as non-bus traffic can pass it without penalty in order to turn left. However there must be signs that define the start of the restriction. If there are none, then no contravention has been committed, and you must appeal on that basis.

As the whole street in that direction is restricted to buses, it is not a bus lane, but a street restricted to bus traffic only. This needs the blue roundel type of signs with the bus symbol on them, one per side. Road markings are not mandatory as I understand it. Others here can probably post the sign that should be there.

So you need to appeal this on the basis of "the contravention did not occur".

The above assumes there really are no signs. If it were me, I'd go and check carefully. I see a lot of vehicles in GSV on the RH side of that street; how did they get there ?
Bagshot
I'm confused. Lewis Grove has been buses only in both directions for many years. How did you approach from there?
gorr4247
I approached from Belmont Hill, the sat nav told me to go straight over the lights onto Lewis Grove. I saw the sign saying Bus only in 240 yards. I wrongly assumed I would go up Lewis Grove and be directed away from the Bus only road in 240 yards.

Any vehicle can use Lewis Grove between A20 (marked Lewisham High St on Google Maps) and Albion Way. The bus only road begins at Albion Way, however there were no signs there/road markings as backed up by GSV in my first post.

My PCN says "contravention 34j - being in a bus lane" "Lewisham High St between jcts Albion Way and Limes Grove".

1. I wasn't in a bus lane? I was in a bus only road?

2. Was I on Lewisham high st? Google maps doesn't name the section of road between Lewis Grove and Limes Grove. The A20 is named as Lewisham High st.

3. I still maintain they have the sign at 110 yards (30m) before the start of the bus only road but they have no signs/road markings at the start of the bus only road.

EDIT: If you use the link in my first post there is a white sign the other side of the bus stop after you have already entered the bus only road. You can see it if you zoom in up the road. Surely these signs (if legal) should be at the junction of Albion Way. Once you're past this turning it's too late.
gorr4247
Sorry to bump but any further comments guys?
Bagshot
I know the area quite well. I used to live round there as a kid. Did my driving test in Lewisham. You used to be able to go straight over from Belmont Hill down Lewis Grove and on up to Catford. Obviously now only by bus.

I believe that there should be signage at the end of Albion Road indicating that you must turn left there if you aren't driving a bus. I'd need to look at the traffic signs manual to see why they haven't got this sign in place. There are lots of combinations of signs that work in situations like this, but they have used none of them.

Also it would be good to see your PCN. I think the location is incorrect or vague. In situations like this where the PCN goes to the registered keeper, who was not necessarily the driver, the RK has to make a decision as to whether to pay or challenge on the basis of the evidence presented to them by the authority. If the authority's evidence is misleading then that makes your life unnecessarily difficult.

Do they offer any chance for you to view the video evidence? If the video does not show your vehicle going through any signs or disobeying road markings then I would say that you have the making of a very good appeal.

Please post up the PCN.
gorr4247
Thanks for the reply Bagshot, I'd be grateful if you could look at these.



Bagshot
OK The location is good. Amazing how one's local knowledge can be wrong. You show two pages of the PCN. There are reverse sides to these pages. One of them should tell you how to view video evidence. Get this evidence and record it. It should show you going past the end of Albion Way. It won't show you going past any signs that you shouldn't have done. If Google Streetview is right, the signage is totally inadequate. I think this is winnable.
gorr4247
Thanks for your reply Bagshot. I didn't open the envelope but that's all that was provided according to the person who did?

1 pages of a4 with the 2 sides I have uploaded.
Bagshot
Personally I would challenge it on the basis that you have not disobeyed any traffic signs. Ask for their evidence in your challenge that demonstrates that you did. The experts in these matters seem absent from this thread. Not sure why.
gorr4247
Thanks again Bagshot,

After reading Lewisham council website, it appears they do not extend the discount period if you appeal.

I'm considering doing exactly what they want me to do and just pay up. Dealing with the halfwits that work at most councils is something I can do without. I'm pretty much convinced their signage is nothing like adequate and the information given to me is very vague but I'm not sure I can stomach spending hours fighting this and then possibly be hit with a £130 fine instead of £65.

It all seems pretty unfair to me and designed to make you give in as its a load of hassle.
Bagshot
QUOTE (gorr4247 @ Tue, 27 Oct 2015 - 18:38) *
After reading Lewisham council website, it appears they do not extend the discount period if you appeal.

Goodness they are desperate! I've never heard of this anywhere but it looks like they can do it. Apparently the feature of putting a PCN on hold isn't a requirement in the Traffic Management Act which surprises me.

It's your money so your choice of course.

If I didn't live a hundred miles away I would drive down there now with a dash cam very carefully and see if I could follow your route without disobeying any legal traffic signs. Get a PCN and fight it all the way. I can't think of an easy way to get those signs verified. If it is still the way it is on GSV then IMHO it isn't enforcable. I would greatly appreciate en expert's view on this. I'm very much a part timer.
Bagshot
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 23 Oct 2015 - 18:18) *
I see the sign indicating buses only ahead, all other traffic to turn left, but cannot see any of the entry signs, and GSV doesn't have photos of this street. So have far down are they ? They must be at the start of the buses-only road

You are spot on Incandescent. This is the location on GSV
Lewis Grove with Lewisham High Street ahead and Albion Way turning to the left
The advance warning sign is there. At the start of the restriction there is no "buses only" sign there is no "No Entry (except buses)" sign, there is no "Left Turn only (except buses)" sign. Advance warning signs indicate that all traffic must turn left into Albion Way, but when you reach Albion Way itself, it has no road name sign!

If I were sure that the signs were like this at the time, I would appeal it all the way. This is a money making trap. It needs to be challenged.
gorr4247
This is my problem too. I'm 40 miles away.

I'm reluctant to let this go on principle but it's not worth more than a couple of hours of my time, plus there is also the risk of the fine being doubled.

Exactly what they want me to think...
Incandescent
Sorry to have to tell you this, but I had another look on GSV, and going as far as one can go, (this street is not covered on GSV), you can zoom in and see the two blue roundel signs with the bus symbol opposite BHS and one of those automatic toilet thingies.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4613271,-...3312!8i6656
gorr4247
Thanks incandescent. I had noticed them before. My argument would be those signs are useless there as by that time you have no option but to continue into the bus only road anyway as there is no escape. There needs to be signage at Albion way.

In any case after reading numerous threads on here including those where appeals were successful, I've decided to pay up. £65 is not worth hours of my time over numerous months, especially considering lewisham don't offer the discount after any appeal.

Thanks all
Bagshot
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 27 Oct 2015 - 20:15) *
Sorry to have to tell you this, but I had another look on GSV, and going as far as one can go, (this street is not covered on GSV)

It very definitely is covered by GSV, you have picked the wrong location. I know the area, OP doesn't. Please follow these links, you'll see what happened.

Bottom of Belmont Hill going straight over into Lewis Grove - first advance warning sign

Further down Lewis Grove Bus lane coming towards me

Approaching the point where all traffic should turn left

Please notice that there is absolutely nothing in the way of signs or lines at the start of the buses only section. No "Turn Left" sign. No "No Entry" No "Buses Only" sign. After this point, Lewisham's enforcement camera picks up traffic coming towards it but cannot get a shot of traffic disobeying a sign. Partly because the camera is in the wrong place but mostly because there is no freaking sign.

Many thanks to everyone following this. Please follow my route on Google Street view and you will see what I mean.

Incandescent
All I can say is I used the GSV reference in your post #16

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4614516,-...3312!8i6656

All I then did was get as far as I could before GSV stops, then zoomed it, to show the two bus-only signs.

Bagshot
And that GSV reference is spot on. It shows the advance warning sign of a restriction in 110m but at the point where the restriction begins there is NO signage or markings. By the time one gets to the restriction signs you zoomed into, it is too late, there is nowhere to turn. At the entrance to Albion Grove there should be a compulsory left turn sign or a buses only sign ahead. There is absolutely nothing

Bagshot
Incandescent has spotted something I hadn't.



It is these signs that are difficult to see on Google Street view that define the contravention. If you get this far you have to turn round and come back.

I still say that there should be signs on the Corner of Albion way to tell you to turn Left.

Not quite as cut and dried as I had thought. Sorry.
gorr4247
Thanks for following this up Bagshot. I had seen these signs as I commented this morning. I think this was the point where I said 'Oh **** I'm in a bus lane', thought it was too late already and carried on the remaining few hundred metres. I didn't realise I could do a 3 point turn and ecscape it.

In my opinion if LC was being fair and actually didn't want people driving down there, then there would be signs at Albion Way. I've just paid up as I'm quite angry already with this and I will be very angry indeed if in 3 months time after a load of hassle my fine is doubled! Not worth the aggro.

Which is what they wanted me to think...
Unzippy
Lewisham High St has featured here before..
Bagshot
Apologies, Incandescent, you were bang on first time round. My bad.

Sorry you've had to pay OP. It wouldn't have been a guaranteed win at adjudication and no way would Lewisham have folded.

Time to drive an artic up there and stop at the signs. Unable to turn round wait for police to come and sort it.

Grr.
Noodles71
QUOTE (Bagshot @ Fri, 23 Oct 2015 - 17:17) *
QUOTE (gorr4247 @ Fri, 23 Oct 2015 - 17:10) *
If you were to approach from Albion Way and turn left there would be no warning at all that I can see except a small white 'Bus Lanes' sign on the Junction at the beginning of the bus lane and Albion Way.

Prior to that are no through road signs on both sides of the road, which gives you a clue.

Which way did you approach it from?



The No through Road signs are incorrect as residents of Mercia Grove have to ignore these signs to legally drive into their street.
Bagshot
QUOTE (Noodles71 @ Mon, 2 Nov 2015 - 14:47) *
The No through Road signs are incorrect as residents of Mercia Grove have to ignore these signs to legally drive into their street.

Ha! Lewisham signage is just the best isn't it?
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