Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: NIP not recieved, now have SJP with failure to declare driver, Deadlines?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Pages: 1, 2
Wes1984
Hi all,
I was caught speeding at 52mph in a 40mph zone which I don’t contest and it was me driving on 24/04/2021, I had only just bought the car and the details weren’t updated by DVLA in time so previous owner was contacted (this was on 30/04/2021 according to SJP paper work) following what I assume is contact from the previous owner a second NIP was issued on 24/06/2021 for myself. Both were issued Royal Mail first class apparently, but the one sent to myself was never received (I would have definitely just accepted the fine as it was only band A and I have no other speeding convictions or points).

I only have all this information now as I have recieved an SJP notice (dated 22/10/2021) with all this information
With the following charges:
Exceed 40mph speed limit-manned equipment
Fail to give information relating to identification of the driver/ rider of a vehicle when required

My understanding is that the advice usually given is to plead not guilty to both, go to court and plea bargain on the day with prosecutor. But then I read other information about the 6 month deadline for prosecution for speeding offences so bearing in mind that my court date would be well after this date, would that plea bargain of accepting speeding in exchange for dropping the ‘failure to give information’ still be an option?

Also what sort of court costs am i likely to incur by going to court?

Thanks in advance for any help with this, I could really do with out the additional weighting on my insurance so im desperate to get the other charge dropped.
southpaw82
Court date is irrelevant.
Wes1984
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 16:18) *
Court date is irrelevant.

Ok thanks, so as the date of issue on the sjp is within the 6 month time frame means I can still be charged for the speeding offence if I plead not guilty and go down the plea bargain route?
AntonyMMM
yes - you have already been charged with both offences, that's what the SJP is telling you.
southpaw82
According to your first post, you have already been charged with the speeding offence, haven’t you?
Wes1984
Sorry if it wasn’t clear, yes the sjp lists both offences I just thought that if the 6 month date expired between now and court case I would no longer have that option...

So the advice would be to go not guilty then try to deal with it on the day with prosecutor if possible? Is that correct? Thanks for any further information you guys can provide.

Also...does the fact they have me bang to rights as such with the speeding as there’s a clear photo of me driving the vehicle affect the likelyhood of the accepting the deal?
Wes1984
I’m in a bit of a quandary now as well, will the court costs I’m likely to incur outstrip the additional costs on my insurance? if so is it better to just take it on the chin and say I’m guilty (when I’m not) to stop my self having the worry of the court case ☹️☹️☹️
Hooli744
From what I've read on here previously the insurance loading for failure to name a driver is is damned steep so would probably cost more than going for the plea bargain.

I think I've read something about a statutory declaration to say you didn't get the paperwork & that resets everything as well.

I'd wait for the more well versed posters to respond rather than believe me though.
666
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 16:51) *
I’m in a bit of a quandary now as well, will the court costs I’m likely to incur outstrip the additional costs on my insurance? if so is it better to just take it on the chin and say I’m guilty (when I’m not) to stop my self having the worry of the court case ☹️☹️☹️

Additional premiums with a "fail to furnish" conviction would be eye-watering. If that charge is dropped and you plead guilty to speeding the prosecution costs would be "only" £85.
Wes1984
Has anyone tried to go down the route of pleading guilty to speeding, not guilty to the ‘failure to provide driver’ and provide a cover letter explaining that you hadn’t received the NIP and would have replied straight away if you had. Surely common sense would prevail that I would just accept the possible driver course and pay the fine with no points on my license, rather than go to all this hassle of potential court etc. when the photo clearly shows it’s me and I have no other convictions in my life, never mind driving convictions.

Drives me insane to think that you can’t send a parcel on ebay without providing actual proof that it’s been sent and yet the police send you something through the post (apparently) with absolutely no evidence needed and it’s on you to prove otherwise, just their word against mine.
Wes1984
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 17:32) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 16:51) *
I’m in a bit of a quandary now as well, will the court costs I’m likely to incur outstrip the additional costs on my insurance? if so is it better to just take it on the chin and say I’m guilty (when I’m not) to stop my self having the worry of the court case ☹️☹️☹️

Additional premiums with a "fail to furnish" conviction would be eye-watering. If that charge is dropped and you plead guilty to speeding the prosecution costs would be "only" £85.

That’s good to know then if I go that route.

So just to confirm...

Current recommended advice in cases like mine are to go down the plea bargain route and deal with it in magistrates court on the day? Or has anyone had success with the guilty to speeding/not guilty to failure to provide details option, and the cover note...

Obviously the second option is the more honest choice as I know I was driving and have no qualms with admitting the speeding, I don’t like the idea of saying not guilty on that when I know it was me but also need to give myself the chance of having the other charge dropped since I’m not at fault for that. aaaagh stressed!!
FuzzyDuck
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 17:58) *
Has anyone tried to go down the route of pleading guilty to speeding, not guilty to the ‘failure to provide driver’

Yes and once it resulted in 9 points being awarded, as the protection carried on with the trial for the "failure ..." charge.
Wes1984
QUOTE (FuzzyDuck @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 18:46) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 17:58) *
Has anyone tried to go down the route of pleading guilty to speeding, not guilty to the ‘failure to provide driver’

Yes and once it resulted in 9 points being awarded, as the protection carried on with the trial for the "failure ..." charge.


Wow, that’s that option out the window, so would you advise to try and speak to prosecutor and go for plea bargain at the magistrates court?
666
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (FuzzyDuck @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 18:46) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 17:58) *
Has anyone tried to go down the route of pleading guilty to speeding, not guilty to the ‘failure to provide driver’

Yes and once it resulted in 9 points being awarded, as the protection carried on with the trial for the "failure ..." charge.


Wow, that’s that option out the window, so would you advise to try and speak to prosecutor and go for plea bargain at the magistrates court?

Yes. It’s the only sensible option. Tried and tested.
andy_foster
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 16:14) *
following what I assume is contact from the previous owner a second NIP was issued on 24/06/2021 for myself. Both were issued Royal Mail first class apparently, but the one sent to myself was never received


Is there a copy of this NIP (addressed to you) in the bundle? If so, is the address correct?

QUOTE (Hooli744 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 17:04) *
I think I've read something about a statutory declaration to say you didn't get the paperwork & that resets everything as well.


Drugs are bad, m'kay?
Wes1984
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 21:40) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 16:14) *
following what I assume is contact from the previous owner a second NIP was issued on 24/06/2021 for myself. Both were issued Royal Mail first class apparently, but the one sent to myself was never received


Is there a copy of this NIP (addressed to you) in the bundle? If so, is the address correct?



Yes there was a copy of the NIP included and the address was correct, I’m absolutely livid that I never received it as I would have just took it on the chin and possibly got the speeding course as it was my first offence 😡😡, there’s also a copy of the photos that were taken which show me driving. For a minor speeding issue I don’t understand why something like this can happen when it’s glaringly obvious there’s no reason for me to not admit to it.
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 00:20) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 21:40) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 16:14) *
following what I assume is contact from the previous owner a second NIP was issued on 24/06/2021 for myself. Both were issued Royal Mail first class apparently, but the one sent to myself was never received


Is there a copy of this NIP (addressed to you) in the bundle? If so, is the address correct?



Yes there was a copy of the NIP included and the address was correct, I’m absolutely livid that I never received it as I would have just took it on the chin and possibly got the speeding course as it was my first offence 😡😡, there’s also a copy of the photos that were taken which show me driving. For a minor speeding issue I don’t understand why something like this can happen when it’s glaringly obvious there’s no reason for me to not admit to it.


Because there a several million other drivers with existing points who may be more inclined to do differently. There's allegedly 1m uninsured drivers which speaks volumes about the honesty/integrity of some other road users...............P.s. Many images (e.g. at night!!) don't show much/any detail of the driver.
The Rookie
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 00:20) *
I would have just took it on the chin and possibly got the speeding course as it was my first offence

Which is not actually relevant to qualifying for a course.

So have you contacted the Police safety camera team yet?
Wes1984
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 10:07) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 00:20) *
I would have just took it on the chin and possibly got the speeding course as it was my first offence

Which is not actually relevant to qualifying for a course.

So have you contacted the Police safety camera team yet?


No I haven’t yet, I wouldn’t know where to find the contact details (other than the mail return address shown, I would prefer to speak on the phone or via email based on my previous experience with Royal Mail in this case) , what should I say when I contact them?

*Update* I’ve found the online form for the safety camera team, what should I say? don’t want to say the wrong thing and incriminate myself but also want to explain the situation and how it wouldn’t make sense for me not to admit to the speeding, that would involve admitting guilt when I want to go not guilty to try for the plea bargain, my brains spinning unsure.gif
Wes1984
I’ve found the contact number and an email address for the sussex safer roads partnership, don’t want to say the wrong thing...

Has anyone got any advice on what I should say to them and how to word any correspondence?

I was thinking something along the lines of...

I have recently received an sjp notice regarding an incident on 24/04/2021 with reference number (*****) in relation to not replying to an nip, s172. As well as for speeding. I did not receive any notice of intended prosecution (other than the copy supplied with the SJP), if I had of received this I would have complied and supplied the drivers information straight away. I understand that there are many cases similar to this but as I hope you can appreciate, as a driver with no previous convictions (driving related or otherwise) the fact that the ticket clearly shows a drivers face, and also owing to the fact that the speeding was related to an offence that would have incurred the lowest band A potential fine and a possible driver awareness course dependant on the circumstances of the driver, it would make no sense for me to put my own insurance premiums at risk and a potential 6 points on my clean license for failing to supply that information. Please could you advise how I should proceed and if there is any possibility of this charge under the SJP being dropped and I will willingly provide the information regarding the driver of the vehicle as I would have in the first instance if the NIP had been received, thanks for your time.


How does that sound, is that a bit presumptuous that they might apply a bit of common sense?
AntonyMMM
The case is already in the court system - contacting the police or safer roads partnership is a complete waste of time.

You cannot be convicted of speeding ( unless you plead guilty) because they have no evidence of who was driving.

You have a defence to the charge of failing to name the driver - being that you didn't receive the notice. That will have to be heard in court.
The Rookie
.deleted.
Irksome
Umm Rookie - is that a reply to a different thread?

This OP needs to plead not guilty to both and do the deal as already advised. Trying to take a different path is probably going to end badly.
Wes1984
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 13:39) *
The case is already in the court system - contacting the police or safer roads partnership is a complete waste of time.

You cannot be convicted of speeding ( unless you plead guilty) because they have no evidence of who was driving.

You have a defence to the charge of failing to name the driver - being that you didn't receive the notice. That will have to be heard in court.


When you say that will have to be heard in court, are you suggesting I don’t attempt the plea bargain and just attempt to defend the case and make my point with regards to charge of failing to name driver once in front of the magistrate, or are you just making the point that I do have a defence hence my being able to use that to push for the plea bargain? If the bargain is accepted then that won’t be discussed in the court at all will it? (I’m speculating here, I don’t know how this process works...I’ve never even been in a magistrates court but I assumed if the prosecutor drops it before hand that it’s not going to be mentioned once I am up in front of the magistrate?)

The other advice by rookie, I’m guessing was posted in error as I have no acknowledgement of an email etc. So I’m going to ignore that for now... unsure.gif
NewJudge
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 15:53) *
When you say that will have to be heard in court, are you suggesting I don’t attempt the plea bargain and just attempt to defend the case and make my point with regards to charge of failing to name driver once in front of the magistrate, or are you just making the point that I do have a defence hence my being able to use that to push for the plea bargain? If the bargain is accepted then that won’t be discussed in the court at all will it? (I’m speculating here, I don’t know how this process works...I’ve never even been in a magistrates court but I assumed if the prosecutor drops it before hand that it’s not going to be mentioned once I am up in front of the magistrate?)

If you intend to ask for the "deal" ideally you should speak to the prosecutor before entering the courtroom. If you are not able to do this, you can make your offer (to plead guilty to speeding only if the "Fail to Provide" charge is dropped) when you are asked to enter your pleas. If your offer is accepted the FtP charge will be discontinued and you will face sentencing for speeding.

In some areas this arrangement has been accepted under the Single Justice procedure but in others a court appearance is necessary. When you return your SJ notice you can make your offer but you should make it absolutely clear that a guilty plea to speeding is only offered providing the FtP charge is dropped. Keep a copy of your response.

If you want to defend the FtP charge you will face a trial and that will certainly not be held that day. Your case will be adjourned to a later date. At your trial the prosecution will present evidence that your "Request for Driver's Details" was sent to you and you will have to prove that you didn't receive it. As already noted, the cost of failure is high.
Wes1984
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 15:53) *
When you say that will have to be heard in court, are you suggesting I don’t attempt the plea bargain and just attempt to defend the case and make my point with regards to charge of failing to name driver once in front of the magistrate, or are you just making the point that I do have a defence hence my being able to use that to push for the plea bargain? If the bargain is accepted then that won’t be discussed in the court at all will it? (I’m speculating here, I don’t know how this process works...I’ve never even been in a magistrates court but I assumed if the prosecutor drops it before hand that it’s not going to be mentioned once I am up in front of the magistrate?)

If you intend to ask for the "deal" ideally you should speak to the prosecutor before entering the courtroom. If you are not able to do this, you can make your offer (to plead guilty to speeding only if the "Fail to Provide" charge is dropped) when you are asked to enter your pleas. If your offer is accepted the FtP charge will be discontinued and you will face sentencing for speeding.

In some areas this arrangement has been accepted under the Single Justice procedure but in others a court appearance is necessary. When you return your SJ notice you can make your offer but you should make it absolutely clear that a guilty plea to speeding is only offered providing the FtP charge is dropped. Keep a copy of your response.

If you want to defend the FtP charge you will face a trial and that will certainly not be held that day. Your case will be adjourned to a later date. At your trial the prosecution will present evidence that your "Request for Driver's Details" was sent to you and you will have to prove that you didn't receive it. As already noted, the cost of failure is high.


Ok that helps a lot and makes it seem much clearer thanks for that, so I should fill out the SJ notice, tick the ‘not guilty’ option on both boxes then in the box marked ‘I’m pleading not guilty because’ I should write something to the effect of....

“ I did not receive any correspondence regarding the NIP or s172 request. Hopefully you can appreciate that as I currently have no convictions (for speeding or otherwise) and the fact there is a photo showing the driver along with the minor nature of the speeding offence (band A), it would clearly have been in my best interest to respond and had I received it I would have replied straight away. I’m more than willing to plead guilty to the speeding charge but only if the charge of ‘failure to give information relating to identity of the driver’ is dropped as I feel this is a wholly unfair charge in light of the circumstances.”

If this is poorly worded or someone has a better suggestion for how to put it please advise, I don’t want to sound like I’m begging but also don’t want to come across as if I’m trying to dictate how this will proceed if that makes sense?
NewJudge
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 16:31) *
If this is poorly worded or someone has a better suggestion for how to put it please advise, I don’t want to sound like I’m begging but also don’t want to come across as if I’m trying to dictate how this will proceed if that makes sense?

Keep it much simpler. Simply say you did not receive the request for driver's details but will plead guilty to the speeding offence provided the FtP charge is dropped.
Wes1984
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 16:36) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 16:31) *
If this is poorly worded or someone has a better suggestion for how to put it please advise, I don’t want to sound like I’m begging but also don’t want to come across as if I’m trying to dictate how this will proceed if that makes sense?

Keep it much simpler. Simply say you did not receive the request for driver's details but will plead guilty to the speeding offence provided the FtP charge is dropped.



Ok I’ll simplify it, do I need to still include the form about earnings as well?

Also on that point, when I fill out that form about my earnings, my wages fluctuate massively on a month by month basis and is mostly made up of additional income for call outs, overtime etc. Do I base the figures on my basic salary, my most recent payslip or last p60? Will they want proof or check?
The Rookie
QUOTE (Irksome @ Tue, 26 Oct 2021 - 14:44) *
Umm Rookie - is that a reply to a different thread?

This OP needs to plead not guilty to both and do the deal as already advised. Trying to take a different path is probably going to end badly.

Mixed up my threads, yes.
Hooli744
[
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 21:40) *
QUOTE (Hooli744 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 17:04) *
I think I've read something about a statutory declaration to say you didn't get the paperwork & that resets everything as well.


Drugs are bad, m'kay?


laugh.gif

Hence I included this

QUOTE (Hooli744 @ Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 17:04) *
I'd wait for the more well versed posters to respond rather than believe me though.
Wes1984
Thanks to all for the advice, this forum has been a godsend. just to add…despite others saying to keep it simple I added a cover note with my ‘not guilty’ plea offer regarding dropping the ‘failure to supply driver info’ and a bit of additional information, not sure on the bearing of this but I just felt it might help.

I didn’t receive any response from the courts so I’ve chased up with the HMCTS service and can confirm the case was reviewed and they dropped the other charge relating to s172!!!! I was slightly frustrated that they still gave me 3 points and fined me the full amount possible even though I would have been eligible for the speed awareness course if I had of received the initial SJP but this is still a definite win in light of the other possible outcome. Hopefully they will send a letter now regarding the fine and the outcome since all I have is the word of the person I spoke to on the phone.

Thanks again
The Rookie
Did they really fine you £1000? That would be outrageous under any circumstance.

A court cannot award an awareness course, as the courses are outside the formal judicial process.
Wes1984
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 29 Nov 2021 - 20:16) *
Did they really fine you £1000? That would be outrageous under any circumstance.

A court cannot award an awareness course, as the courses are outside the formal judicial process.



Sorry I mean the full amount possible based on my earnings as opposed to a fixed penalty, so somewhere in the region of £450. But still a lot of money for the offence in my eyes.
The Rookie
Did you make it clear that you were eligible for an FPN and that you would have accepted one? Had you come back before the hearing we would have recommended this.

You could approach the court and explain you believe there is an error in sentencing and request they reopen the case under S142 of the magistrates court act and resentence you in accordance with the guidance.
Wes1984
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 30 Nov 2021 - 13:05) *
Did you make it clear that you were eligible for an FPN and that you would have accepted one? Had you come back before the hearing we would have recommended this.

You could approach the court and explain you believe there is an error in sentencing and request they reopen the case under S142 of the magistrates court act and resentence you in accordance with the guidance.


In my original cover note that I sent in with my plea, I made a point of mentioning that as I hadn’t received the original SJP I would appreciate if the fine was considered with this in mind but I didn’t mention the fixed penalty notice specifically.
I appreciate your point regarding the hearing but I never had a court date…I put in a ‘not guilty’ plea via post, didn’t get a response regarding a court date so after waiting for 3/4 weeks, I chased it up and rang the HMCTS number. I was told that it would have been heard in court by the person I spoke to on the phone when I rang the HMCTS service number. When I mentioned to the person on the phone that I thought that must be an error as I understand it should be dealt with as if I hadn’t recieved the s172 and I should be treated as such in regards the fine or penalty, his response was that it can no longer be dealt with in magistrates if I choose to appeal the level of fine and that I would then have to go to crown court to deal with and should seek legal advice.

At that point I was thinking maybe I should cut my losses and be thankful but if you feel I have a case for getting that reduced by contacting the courts then I will definitely do that.
The Rookie
Asking for it to be reopened carries zero risk and zero cost and potentially a decent benefit so.......
Wes1984
I’m now really confused, I was told on the phone by the HMCTS service that the s172 had been dropped and I was only being charged with the speeding, they told me the full fine amount including victim surcharge etc. this was on the 29th of November I spoke to them on the phone. Now today I’ve received a letter dated 30th November with a heading of ‘new date of hearing’ ( i never received an old date of hearing?) saying that my case has been adjourned for a case management hearing to discuss and identify the issues in the case and then fix a trial date. BUT this letter stilll lists the failure to give information as one of the cases even though I have been told by the HMCTS service that this had been dropped. Please can someone help with what I should do next, I’m really confused by this now!

Now that I think about it, is this likely to be just a formality where I’ll go there and it’s already been arranged so I’ll be in and out of court with the outcome predetermined as per the info on file for this case that I’ve been given by the HMCTS?
The Rookie
Is the speeding still listed?

If not it seems they ignored the conditional nature of your plea, accepted that guilty plea and now your being tried for the S172.
Wes1984
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 18:04) *
Is the speeding still listed?

If not it seems they ignored the conditional nature of your plea, accepted that guilty plea and now your being tried for the S172.


Yes speeding is still listed as well as s172.

I Didn’t enter a guilty plea, I went ‘not guilty’ on both with the explanation I sent in with my plea ( on page 2 of the paperwork as well as in more detail on my cover note) regarding the offer of guilty for speeding if the other charge of s172 is dropped. I was told specifically on the phone that it had been dropped.

Both are still listed under the cases, I don’t understand how I can be told on the phone it’s been dropped and they’ve even told me what my fine will be etc. then I get that through the post dated the next day after the phone call.
andy_foster
There is no single legal definition of "it's been dropped" - it can be that the CPS have simply decided not to proceed with that charge, or are intending to offer no evidence, or it might be that it has been formally discontinued (in which case you ought to have received a notice of discontinuance).

Similarly, what is listed on the court paperwork may or may not bear any relation to the current state of the case.
Wes1984
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 21:11) *
There is no single legal definition of "it's been dropped" - it can be that the CPS have simply decided not to proceed with that charge, or are intending to offer no evidence, or it might be that it has been formally discontinued (in which case you ought to have received a notice of discontinuance).

Similarly, what is listed on the court paperwork may or may not bear any relation to the current state of the case.


So bearing this in mind what do you think I should do moving forward? Just wait and go to court as requested? Contact the courts now and ask for clarification or more information? Contact HMCTS for more information?
andy_foster
Yes
Wes1984
I’m at a complete loss as to what’s going on now, the HMCTS have told me the case was reopened due to a speeding incident 12/12/2019 involving a Toyota which I have no clue about, I have never owned a Toyota and from what HMCTS have told me there is no mention of my name relating to that case so they’re unsure how the two are linked and can’t tell me anymore information about it. They’ve assured me that they’re trying to get the courts to urgently look into what’s happened and they will contact me soon hopefully. In the mean time I’m on the verge of a panic attack from this stress and no one can even tell me what’s happening.
The Rookie
Why get stressed when you know it's nothing to do with you?

Just sounds like someone mixed up the files, soon fixed!
Wes1984
I’ve now been told the case was initially resolved on the 22/11/21, they’re saying they probably hadn’t received the plea information by this date (it was signed for on the 2nd of November so they definitely had it) but miraculously just happened to progress with just the speeding as per my plea bargain offer (even though they hadn’t considered my offer yet, they said they hadn’t received/considered it remember?) they’ve told me the other case regarding the Toyota was added in error and has been removed now, this must have been very close to the time my case was reopened as on the 29th when I spoke to HMCTS the Toyota offence wasn’t on file relating to my case, coincidence? Surely that error is the reason the case has been reopened! but either way now I have to go through the hassle of sending them in an email with my plea offer again and tell them Im guilty of the speeding but not the s172.

Just to add, they said that I should admit guilt in the email for the speeding but not guilty for s172 as this would have resolved the case quicker initially but most advice on here says to state not guilty on both but with the plea bargain offer, how do you think I should proceed as far as wording of this email to the courts?
The Rookie
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 12:07) *
Just to add, they said that I should admit guilt in the email for the speeding but not guilty for s172 as this would have resolved the case quicker initially but most advice on here says to state not guilty on both but with the plea bargain offer, how do you think I should proceed as far as wording of this email to the courts?

The same as you did before, not guilty to both and a conditional offer on a guilty plea, you don't take legal advice from a secretary regardless of who they work for.

If you plead as they suggest it's not impossible they progress the S172 anyway and you have a weak defence and risk getting 9 points in total.
Wes1984
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 13:52) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 12:07) *
Just to add, they said that I should admit guilt in the email for the speeding but not guilty for s172 as this would have resolved the case quicker initially but most advice on here says to state not guilty on both but with the plea bargain offer, how do you think I should proceed as far as wording of this email to the courts?

The same as you did before, not guilty to both and a conditional offer on a guilty plea, you don't take legal advice from a secretary regardless of who they work for.

If you plead as they suggest it's not impossible they progress the S172 anyway and you have a weak defence and risk getting 9 points in total.


Ok thanks, I’ll keep this post updated.
Wes1984
angry.gif angry.gif I’m struggling with how to word my plea bargain email to the courts, I would like to make sure I mention the fact I should have been eligible for a fixed penalty notice in the first instance had I received the initial sjp but I don’t want to sound entitled.

The clerk has implied that the fact I went ‘not guilty’ on both charges rather than me going ‘guilty’ for the speeding as per her suggestion is the reason my case was reopened (I’m not convinced and still believe this is down to someone elses Speeding charge being added to the case file and then removed but by which time it was possibly too late as the case had been reopened) but I don’t want to incriminate myself and end up with 9 points, equally though..if the way I pleaded is the reason it was reopened then my new plea will likely result in the same outcome anyway so is it worth even sending this plea offer??

Surely there has to be some information available relating to why the reopened the case, I don’t understand how I can be told by the clerk that it’s probably this or maybe that, someone must have information relating to why?

Finally….

If anyone has a neat simple way of responding and how to word this email plea bargain I would be really grateful for any assistance? The fact this is going to be wasting court time in the first place is bloody ridiculous
southpaw82
“I am willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence on the condition that the s 172 offence is withdrawn. Otherwise, my plea will be not guilty to both offences.”

“In mitigation, I would like to respectfully point to the Magistrates Sentencing Guidelines, which say that where a fixed penalty is not taken up for reasons beyond the defendant’s control the court ought to consider imposing a sentence equivalent to the fixed penalty. I did not have the opportunity to accept a fixed penalty because…”
Wes1984
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 20:20) *
“I am willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence on the condition that the s 172 offence is withdrawn. Otherwise, my plea will be not guilty to both offences.”

“In mitigation, I would like to respectfully point to the Magistrates Sentencing Guidelines, which say that where a fixed penalty is not taken up for reasons beyond the defendant’s control the court ought to consider imposing a sentence equivalent to the fixed penalty. I did not have the opportunity to accept a fixed penalty because…”


Excellent, thank you, that’s very helpful especially with regards to the mitigation.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the reopening? On what grounds can the case be reopened and what record must they have on file for the reason why? I can’t believe that they couldn’t tell me clearly on the phone exactly why they had reopened.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.