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Porambokku21
I have received a NIP today for an incident that happened on the 21/12/21, the offence was for speeding, 91 on a 70mph limit (M25).

As you may see from the additional information sheet, there potentially could be three choices,
1. Safety awareness course
2. Fixed penalty of £100 and 3 points
3. Prosecution

Clearly my first action will be to respond soonest with the S172 form giving the particulars of the driver.

Please find attached the scanned copies of the documents for your reference.

My queries are,

Am I being disadvantaged by declaring the part 1 driver admission information section of 172. The reason being, in the additional info sheet it says in italics that by filling in this section I’m only admitting that I was the driver but not to the alleged offence. How does that work.

Secondly, what are my chances to get a awareness course, I understand that this can only be decided after I disclose the details of my licence. I have had two offences in the past,
1. I had an accident nearly 5 years ago when I crashed into a stationary car in a 30 mph road. However, the crash was not due to speed but because of my negligence as I wasn’t paying full attention to the road on a misty day!! The car in front was waiting for a pedestrian signal which I failed to see because of my less attention combined with the poor visibility.
2. I did attend one of these courses about 10 years ago for a similar offence!
I wondered whether the above two incidents will have any bearing on the decision to give me a safety awareness course, it says I must meet certain eligibility criteria to qualify for this course. This is purely for information purposes only as I understand from the letter that I won't be able to influence this decision in any way or form.

Thirdly, is it ok to view the evidence of the alleged offence online in their website or will that be used against be in any way or form if this goes to prosecution.

Thanks for your time, advice and comments. smile.gif
666
First, you are indeed being disadvantaged, in that at present the police do not know who was driving. However, the penalties for failing to name the driver are considerably heavier than those for the speeding offence. It is not an admission of guilt.

Second, your speed was too high for a course. Apart from speed, the only other criterion is that you must not have done the same course in the previous three years.

Third, yes it is ok.

Finally, your speed should qualify you for the offer of a fixed penalty (£100 and three points). In the absence of a defence, that will be your best option.
Porambokku21
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 31 Dec 2021 - 16:28) *
First, you are indeed being disadvantaged, in that at present the police do not know who was driving. However, the penalties for failing to name the driver are considerably heavier than those for the speeding offence. It is not an admission of guilt.

Second, your speed was too high for a course. Apart from speed, the only other criterion is that you must not have done the same course in the previous three years.

Third, yes it is ok.

Finally, your speed should qualify you for the offer of a fixed penalty (£100 and three points). In the absence of a defence, that will be your best option.


Thanks, 666.

That is unfortunate but makes sense. But, are there no way I could defend. I appreciate there can be no excuse for speeding but it was a situation of catching a flight on time as otherwise my partner would have missed her mother's funeral overseas! It was a matter of urgency and desperate attempt to get everything done in fairly short period of time !!

What are the chances to make a genuine request with enough evidences to support the situation and given that there wasn't any negative impact on the road at that time due to my speeding. Will it at least help me qualify for a course rather than points on my licence.

Thanks again..

andy_foster
Playing Devil's Advocate, could you have set off earlier? In other words was this a situation you found yourself in through no fault of your own, or were you the author of your own misfortune?
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Fri, 31 Dec 2021 - 17:30) *
But, are there no way I could defend. I appreciate there can be no excuse for speeding but it was a situation of catching a flight on time as otherwise my partner would have missed her mother's funeral overseas! It was a matter of urgency and desperate attempt to get everything done in fairly short period of time !!

What are the chances to make a genuine request with enough evidences to support the situation and given that there wasn't any negative impact on the road at that time due to my speeding. Will it at least help me qualify for a course rather than points on my licence.

Thanks again..


Close to zero - speeidng a pretty much non-negotiable in prosecution terms (barring duress of circumstances and a couple of others), but also consider how much time you actually saved, given 2-3 hour check-in etc the the present time and , as said above, an earlier departure.

Don't forget, defending in court and almost certainly losing replaces £100 & 3 points with about £600 and the same points...............
Jlc
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Fri, 31 Dec 2021 - 17:40) *
and the same points...............

91 is the start of Band B - so 4 points would be the likely outcome.

QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Fri, 31 Dec 2021 - 17:30) *
What are the chances to make a genuine request with enough evidences to support the situation and given that there wasn't any negative impact on the road at that time due to my speeding. Will it at least help me qualify for a course rather than points on my licence.

Take the 3 points & £100 - it will be the best offer you'll get. They won't budge on the SAC threshold.
Porambokku21
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 31 Dec 2021 - 17:34) *
Playing Devil's Advocate, could you have set off earlier? In other words was this a situation you found yourself in through no fault of your own, or were you the author of your own misfortune?


I'm not sure if it is either, because the circumstances were such ! We had the news of her mom's death at half past midnight and we set off to Heathrow at about 1.30 am after all the crying and shock, coming to terms with what had happened. Upon a quick scrambling for flights, there was one direct flight leaving at 8.45am which will help her to be with her mom in about 12 hours! However with no test centers available at that hour to give us a PCR test result (which takes 3 hours!) we decided it is best to use the express test centers at the Terminal itself. Hence, the rush to meet the time frame required for all the processing required to do the test. We also anticipated issues to get into test itself as it was very clearly stated in the website that they don't do walk ins!! But, we didn't have any choice but to go there directly and make a request explaining the situation to them.

so, I don't know if I could have done anything different in that situation that would have helped me avoid this speeding situation. I guess I was just unfortunate in that there were times when I certainly wasn't doing that speed during that 45 minutes M25 journey!!

Having said all that, I guess I just have to face it and settle for the fine and 3 points, that is if they give me that choice than being greedy!! end of the day it was an offence...

Thanks all for your comments..
notmeatloaf
Despite not thinking clearly due to the circumstances I don't think there is any defence of necessity (also referred to as duress of circumstance). You were rushing to the airport but you hadn't checked for flights online. As such, your speed wasn't required in order to get a flight in xxx minutes. And you were rushing to get to an airport where no flights take off overnight setting off in the early hours.

As such, your best offer will be the £100/3pts you will inevitably receive in the post. Do not return this with any details about needing to get to the airport. Camera offices have a habit of interpreting this as a defence/mitigation you want heard in court, and not processing the FPN (though they'll probably keep your money for a few months).
andy_foster
This was never going to be a viable duress of circumstances defence - there was no immediate danger of death or serious injury to mitigate. However, IMHO there could be a viable special reasons not to endorse argument - if it is accepted that it appeared to be necessary to exceed the speed limit in order for your partner to get to her mum's funeral.

The official definition of SRNTE is (off the top of my head) -
not a defence,
is directly connect with the commission of the offence (the offence was committed because),
is mitigation and
is such that he court ought to consider not ordering the licence to be endorsed.

The slightly more cynical version is -
circumstances (not of your own making) where the magistrates could envisage doing the same as you did if they were in your shoes.

For the price of a stamp it seems prudent to write to the SCP asking explaining what happened (ideally with evidence) and asking for leniency - although it should be noted that they are generally speaking "sausage factories", so I wouldn't pin my hopes on it.


N.B. If the court find SRNTE then you don't get any points, and I would suggest that they also ought to consider a discharge (no fine). To get to court, assuming that the SCP don't want to be lenient, you would have to reject/ignore the offer of a fixed penalty and risk a larger fine/costs/points if the court do not find special reasons, etc.
notmeatloaf
...
roythebus
The easiest and cheapest way out is to take the £100 and 3 points if that's what they are offering. The points are hardly likely to affect your insurance, most people have at least 3 points these days according to statistics.
The Slithy Tove
QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 04:41) *
most people have at least 3 points these days according to statistics.

Love to see those stats if you want to make such an assertion.
Porambokku21
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 31 Dec 2021 - 23:47) *
This was never going to be a viable duress of circumstances defence - there was no immediate danger of death or serious injury to mitigate. However, IMHO there could be a viable special reasons not to endorse argument - if it is accepted that it appeared to be necessary to exceed the speed limit in order for your partner to get to her mum's funeral.

The official definition of SRNTE is (off the top of my head) -
not a defence,
is directly connect with the commission of the offence (the offence was committed because),
is mitigation and
is such that he court ought to consider not ordering the licence to be endorsed.

The slightly more cynical version is -
circumstances (not of your own making) where the magistrates could envisage doing the same as you did if they were in your shoes.

For the price of a stamp it seems prudent to write to the SCP asking explaining what happened (ideally with evidence) and asking for leniency - although it should be noted that they are generally speaking "sausage factories", so I wouldn't pin my hopes on it.


N.B. If the court find SRNTE then you don't get any points, and I would suggest that they also ought to consider a discharge (no fine). To get to court, assuming that the SCP don't want to be lenient, you would have to reject/ignore the offer of a fixed penalty and risk a larger fine/costs/points if the court do not find special reasons, etc.


Thanks andy_foster.

First I may need some help with the abbreviation you have used, IMHO & SRNTE

As I understand it, initially I can attempt to request for leniency with SCP explaining the situation with evidence and there is a small chance that they may let me off without points, is this right and this is entirely separate to the SRNTE which is the prosecution option in which case I run the risk of losing everything and end up with a potentially high fine and more points.

And if I manage to get SCP request done before the current 28 days deadline and if returns not in my favor, I guess I can still choose to submit the S172 with driver details and keep my fingers crossed for a £100 FP and 3 points. I'm already resigning to not to go through prosecution route as I feel it is not worth the risk.

Kindly confirm if my above understanding is correct.

Thanks

QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 04:41) *
The easiest and cheapest way out is to take the £100 and 3 points if that's what they are offering. The points are hardly likely to affect your insurance, most people have at least 3 points these days according to statistics.


Appreciate your effort to help me with some thing like that smile.gif but based on my quick research it seems it will take at least 4 years to wipe out the points completely off the drivers record and the insurance generally goes up by 5% for 3 points on the licence and 25% if you have 4 points.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 31 Dec 2021 - 23:10) *
Despite not thinking clearly due to the circumstances I don't think there is any defence of necessity (also referred to as duress of circumstance). You were rushing to the airport but you hadn't checked for flights online. As such, your speed wasn't required in order to get a flight in xxx minutes. And you were rushing to get to an airport where no flights take off overnight setting off in the early hours.

As such, your best offer will be the £100/3pts you will inevitably receive in the post. Do not return this with any details about needing to get to the airport. Camera offices have a habit of interpreting this as a defence/mitigation you want heard in court, and not processing the FPN (though they'll probably keep your money for a few months).


Not entirely correct, we did book the tickets online prior to our journey to the airport and so we did know what we were aiming for which forms the reason to be there on good time. And the fact that we will be faced with additional time constraints for doing a walk in for the PCR test (which isn't entertained in the first place) which in normal circumstances was already going to take over 3 hours for the result to come out meant we needed at least 5 hours between providing the sample and the check in time for the booked flight.

Hope that makes things a little clearer now. Not that this is going to make any difference to my current situation but atleast helps people like yourself to give me the right suggestions.
andy_foster
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 31 Dec 2021 - 23:47) *
Special Reasons Not To Endorse argument - if it is accepted that it appeared to be necessary to exceed the speed limit in order for your partner to get to her mum's funeral.
NewJudge
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 12:35) *
As I understand it, initially I can attempt to request for leniency with SCP explaining the situation with evidence and there is a small chance that they may let me off without points, is this right and this is entirely separate to the SRNTE which is the prosecution option in which case I run the risk of losing everything and end up with a potentially high fine and more points.

And if I manage to get SCP request done before the current 28 days deadline and if returns not in my favor, I guess I can still choose to submit the S172 with driver details and keep my fingers crossed for a £100 FP and 3 points. I'm already resigning to not to go through prosecution route as I feel it is not worth the risk.

Kindly confirm if my above understanding is correct.

No it is not correct. You must respond to the S172 request by providing the driver's details regardless of how you propose to deal with the speeding offence itself. Until you do this, the SCP do not know who they are dealing with as the driver is currently unknown to them.

Quite honestly it is my view that the SCP will decline your request for leniency. They have two options for out-of-court disposals: a speed awareness course or a fixed penalty (FP) of £100 and 3 points. Your speed is too fast for a course (they are only offered up to 86mph). The SCP has no option which includes a fine but no points and in any case they do not usually make decisions on the basis of mitigation. They make their decisions purely on the speed alleged and the prevailing limit (unless the driver has nine or more points).

If they do decline your request this leaves you with either accepting the FP or having the case heard in court. Frankly I doubt your pleading will cut much ice. In the cold light of day, the court will do a few calculations. You said your journey to the airport took 45 minutes. Even if you had travelled at 90mph for all of this time (which you accept you didn't) the time saving would have been minimal. Of course you didn't make those calculations when you began your journey, but it will be a consideration for the court and it is my view that your plea of SRNTE will be unsuccessful.

That said, you need to weigh up the cost of making such a plea. Against the certainty of £100 and 3 points, you have the uncertainty of the court outcome. If you are sentenced normally you will see a fine of a week's net income (reduced by a third for your guilty plea). You will also pay a surcharge of 50% of the fine (minimum £34) and £85 costs. As mentioned above, four points is most likely. There is a possibility the the court may not find SRNTE but decide you do deserve some leniency and so reduce the fine and/or costs. However, if they do decide to impose points, three is the minimum.

So really, you need to take your choice and be ready to pay your money.

Porambokku21
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 14:14) *
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 12:35) *
As I understand it, initially I can attempt to request for leniency with SCP explaining the situation with evidence and there is a small chance that they may let me off without points, is this right and this is entirely separate to the SRNTE which is the prosecution option in which case I run the risk of losing everything and end up with a potentially high fine and more points.

And if I manage to get SCP request done before the current 28 days deadline and if returns not in my favor, I guess I can still choose to submit the S172 with driver details and keep my fingers crossed for a £100 FP and 3 points. I'm already resigning to not to go through prosecution route as I feel it is not worth the risk.

Kindly confirm if my above understanding is correct.

No it is not correct. You must respond to the S172 request by providing the driver's details regardless of how you propose to deal with the speeding offence itself. Until you do this, the SCP do not know who they are dealing with as the driver is currently unknown to them.

Quite honestly it is my view that the SCP will decline your request for leniency. They have two options for out-of-court disposals: a speed awareness course or a fixed penalty (FP) of £100 and 3 points. Your speed is too fast for a course (they are only offered up to 86mph). The SCP has no option which includes a fine but no points and in any case they do not usually make decisions on the basis of mitigation. They make their decisions purely on the speed alleged and the prevailing limit (unless the driver has nine or more points).

If they do decline your request this leaves you with either accepting the FP or having the case heard in court. Frankly I doubt your pleading will cut much ice. In the cold light of day, the court will do a few calculations. You said your journey to the airport took 45 minutes. Even if you had travelled at 90mph for all of this time (which you accept you didn't) the time saving would have been minimal. Of course you didn't make those calculations when you began your journey, but it will be a consideration for the court and it is my view that your plea of SRNTE will be unsuccessful.

That said, you need to weigh up the cost of making such a plea. Against the certainty of £100 and 3 points, you have the uncertainty of the court outcome. If you are sentenced normally you will see a fine of a week's net income (reduced by a third for your guilty plea). You will also pay a surcharge of 50% of the fine (minimum £34) and £85 costs. As mentioned above, four points is most likely. There is a possibility the the court may not find SRNTE but decide you do deserve some leniency and so reduce the fine and/or costs. However, if they do decide to impose points, three is the minimum.

So really, you need to take your choice and be ready to pay your money.


Thanks, NewJudge that is much clearer now. Again just a small correction on the journey time, the 45 minutes was just on the M25 and we had another 45 minutes of journey on either side of M25 to do before we could reach the Airport. So, in essence the difference in speed I'm guessing could have had some impact on our arrival time at the airport.

Agree about the risk involved in taking the prosecution route, this is why I'd rather pick the FP and 3 points if given!

In terms of the leniency request can I just attach a letter with the S172 form or is there a more proper channel that I should be using for this request?


NewJudge
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Sun, 2 Jan 2022 - 09:17) *
In terms of the leniency request can I just attach a letter with the S172 form...

Yes that would be the way to do it. If the SCP decide to process your case in the usual way you should see the offer of a fixed penalty in response to your reply. You will have 28 days to decide whether or not to accept it.
The Rookie
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 09:29) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 04:41) *
most people have at least 3 points these days according to statistics.

Love to see those stats if you want to make such an assertion.

Circa 1.15M cases a year result in points, with a 4 year life on a licence that would be 4.6M, but of course repeat offenders wouldn’t add to the number. 36M licence holders. So I think ‘most’ would be hard to argue as factually accurate.
Porambokku21
Just realised that the surname in all of those documents have been mis-spelled. Should I point this out in my request for leniency letter?

And are there any templates to draft a letter for Request for leniency addressed to SCP

Thanks
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Mon, 3 Jan 2022 - 10:46) *
Just realised that the surname in all of those documents have been mis-spelled. Should I point this out in my request for leniency letter?

And are there any templates to draft a letter for Request for leniency addressed to SCP

Thanks


You can point it out, but it makes zero difference to anything - a simple and irrelevant admin error/typo. You might check your V5C is correctly spelt too.

No-one can template a letter as it's your circumstances that need to be included and your degree of 'emotion'. However do post a draft in this thread if you wish, as some we see make matters worse by trying to 'justify' rather than appeal for leniency.
Slapdash
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 2 Jan 2022 - 12:56) *
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 09:29) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 04:41) *
most people have at least 3 points these days according to statistics.

Love to see those stats if you want to make such an assertion.

Circa 1.15M cases a year result in points, with a 4 year life on a licence that would be 4.6M, but of course repeat offenders wouldn’t add to the number. 36M licence holders. So I think ‘most’ would be hard to argue as factually accurate.


https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/ar...ts-licence.html

Presumably a bit out of date.

I was surprised when I sawcthis a while back. 5 percent ish seemed hugely low.


TMC Towcester
QUOTE (Slapdash @ Mon, 3 Jan 2022 - 11:26) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 2 Jan 2022 - 12:56) *
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 09:29) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 04:41) *
most people have at least 3 points these days according to statistics.

Love to see those stats if you want to make such an assertion.

Circa 1.15M cases a year result in points, with a 4 year life on a licence that would be 4.6M, but of course repeat offenders wouldn’t add to the number. 36M licence holders. So I think ‘most’ would be hard to argue as factually accurate.


https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/ar...ts-licence.html

Presumably a bit out of date.

I was surprised when I sawcthis a while back. 5 percent ish seemed hugely low.


Although the 'real' figure may double (or more) if we add in the SAC attendees?
andy_foster
Might as well add the people who have exceeded the speed limit (and the ACPO threshold) but weren't caught if you add the SAC attendees to get the "real" figure.
The Rookie
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 3 Jan 2022 - 12:19) *
Although the 'real' figure may double (or more) if we add in the SAC attendees?

Publicly available information at just over 1M a year, but as the issue was ‘points on licence’ I don’t see the real number being increased by SAC attendees.

Regardless 2.6M is nowhere near being ‘most’ of 36M where I would assume ‘most’ would have to at least mean greater than 1/2 that (18M)…..
Porambokku21
Gents, that is an interesting statistics based discussion about the number of people with points although have to admit that even the smallest of those numbers which is 1.15M still is a staggering number!!

Back to my case, I have drafted out a letter to go alongside the S172. as TMC_Towcester commented the last thing I want to do now is to make things worse by justifying by choosing the wrong words or tone in my leniency letter. So, please can I request you to review the letter and let me know your thoughts, that will be so helpful.

Thank again for your time.

"Dear Officer in Charge,

I have received a Notice of Intended Prosecution for an offence of speeding committed in M25 between Junction 9 and 10 on 21/12/2021.

I accept that at no time is speeding safe and I realise the danger that I may have caused. However, I would like to explain the circumstances under which this incident took place and request you to consider this whilst you are processing the case.

On the night of the incident my mother-in-law had passed away in India and my wife had to travel on the next available flight to be there on time for the funeral. A direct flight to her town would take ~11 hours, considering all the formalities involved for a long journey as such we had to be as time efficient as possible. Fortunately, we managed to secure a seat on a flight that was leaving Heathrow T2 at 08.45 am, the booking was made at around 01.00 am (Ticket and booking details enclosed herewith), this trip would mean she can be with her mom in 12 hours.

We also had to ensure she had a ‘Fit to Fly’ PCR test done before she can be checked in and to process a PCR test normally takes 3 hours to get the results. As it was all sudden and in the middle of night we couldn’t find any test center’s available! The only option we had was to try the Express test services at the Terminal itself but they were quite clear on the website that they don’t do walk ins and that all appointments have to be booked online. But, given the situation we convinced ourselves to head to the airport first and then try explaining the situation to them so that they can help us. All this meant only one thing, we were going to need more time at the airport than normal travelling times.

It normally takes an hour and a half from our place to the Airport, taking into consideration, the amount of time that is going to be involved with just testing and getting the results and on top of that to be able to meet the check in time for the Airlines, we felt we were quite tight. Again, I would like to reemphasize here that this doesn’t excuse us for the speeding offence however I just would like to request for a leniency on these grounds that it was an exceptional situation and circumstances and the fact that there wasn’t much traffic at that hour meant that it would help if I could save some time anywhere I could.

I do appreciate that a speed of 91 on 70 limit is wrong but there were no other aggravating features apart from the speed. I would be very much grateful if I can be sent for a safety awareness course rather than having to pay fine and get penalty points. I have never had any penalty points on my licence since I had my licence (13 years)

I have attached here with the following for your kind perusal,

The Flight ticket that my wife had used for her journey to attend the funeral
The PCR test result from Express test service that was used at the airport
Death certificate of my mother-in-law"
Hooli744
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 2 Jan 2022 - 13:56) *
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 09:29) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 04:41) *
most people have at least 3 points these days according to statistics.

Love to see those stats if you want to make such an assertion.

Circa 1.15M cases a year result in points, with a 4 year life on a licence that would be 4.6M, but of course repeat offenders wouldn’t add to the number. 36M licence holders. So I think ‘most’ would be hard to argue as factually accurate.


What surprises me most there is only about half the population has a driving licence.
The Rookie
That letter looks about right to me.


Somewhat off topic now.
QUOTE (Hooli744 @ Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 08:36) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 2 Jan 2022 - 13:56) *
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 09:29) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 1 Jan 2022 - 04:41) *
most people have at least 3 points these days according to statistics.

Love to see those stats if you want to make such an assertion.

Circa 1.15M cases a year result in points, with a 4 year life on a licence that would be 4.6M, but of course repeat offenders wouldn’t add to the number. 36M licence holders. So I think ‘most’ would be hard to argue as factually accurate.


What surprises me most there is only about half the population has a driving licence.

Given the average age of starting to learn is now 26, that means 1/3 the population is taken out straight away, making that 65% of total quite logical.
https://www.insurancefactory.co.uk/news/Aug...inner%20to%2026.
Porambokku21
Please can I have some comments / advice on my draft "letter of leniency" shown in my post above. I seriously don't want to mess it up!!

Thanks
NewJudge
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 19:12) *
Please can I have some comments / advice on my draft "letter of leniency" shown in my post above. I seriously don't want to mess it up!!

It's very long, but I don't see that you have any choice in that, bearing in mind what you want to explain. But that has its disadvantages. The people at the ticket office who deal with these things work on a very prescriptive process. Up to 86mph they will offer a course, 87-95mph a fixed penalty, above that and it's court. What you are asking them to do is to stray outside their prescriptive penalties. I believe they are unlikely to do that. You are asking them to accommodate a wide range of circumstances which came together to put you in the position you found yourself in: the death of your mother-in-law, the complications caused by Covid testing, the need to travel immediately. These are things that would occupy a Bench of Magistrates in their retiring room for some time. Put bluntly, the people in the ticket office do not have that luxury. What you are seeking is effectively a judicial decision and whilst the the ticket office may accept everything you tell them, they provide an administrative function and are simply not equipped to act judicially. If you don't want to accept the normal out-of-court disposal they will offer their normal response is to see the matter tested in court.

All that said, you have nothing to lose and I hope you are successful with your request. But I believe you will have to go to court if you don't want to accept a fixed penalty. What you should realise is if you do choose court, the court has no powers to order a course. All you can ask them to consider is that there are "Special Reasons" not to endorse your licence, as discussed earlier in your thread.
Porambokku21
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 20:41) *
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 19:12) *
Please can I have some comments / advice on my draft "letter of leniency" shown in my post above. I seriously don't want to mess it up!!

It's very long, but I don't see that you have any choice in that, bearing in mind what you want to explain. But that has its disadvantages. The people at the ticket office who deal with these things work on a very prescriptive process. Up to 86mph they will offer a course, 87-95mph a fixed penalty, above that and it's court. What you are asking them to do is to stray outside their prescriptive penalties. I believe they are unlikely to do that. You are asking them to accommodate a wide range of circumstances which came together to put you in the position you found yourself in: the death of your mother-in-law, the complications caused by Covid testing, the need to travel immediately. These are things that would occupy a Bench of Magistrates in their retiring room for some time. Put bluntly, the people in the ticket office do not have that luxury. What you are seeking is effectively a judicial decision and whilst the the ticket office may accept everything you tell them, they provide an administrative function and are simply not equipped to act judicially. If you don't want to accept the normal out-of-court disposal they will offer their normal response is to see the matter tested in court.

All that said, you have nothing to lose and I hope you are successful with your request. But I believe you will have to go to court if you don't want to accept a fixed penalty. What you should realise is if you do choose court, the court has no powers to order a course. All you can ask them to consider is that there are "Special Reasons" not to endorse your licence, as discussed earlier in your thread.


Thanks NewJudge. Although sounds harsh, it does seem to be the reality given the number of cases that they have to deal with on a daily basis. That is a good insight on the limits of what the people at SCP can do.

I'm now reconsidering my plan, as I don't want to even by accident make things worse so I'd rather just leave it so that at least I will be a good candidate for the FP and 3 points. I really don't want to take the prosecution route as I feel it is too much of a hassle and effort and isn't a risk worth taking.

Thanks again for your valuable feedback.
NewJudge
I don't think your request to the ticket office for leniency can make anything worse. The worst outcome is for them to reject your request and simply offer you a fixed penalty. It's beyond that where you really need to think hard as I believe your case for "Special Reasons" is far from secure.
notmeatloaf
If you are going to do it make it short and sweet, and certain that it is mitigation.

Remember most replies never get read by a human. They go into an OCR machine which churns out a course, fixed penalty or refers to court as appropriate.

By including a letter you are putting yourself in the time consuming pile along with other people with genuine mitigation but also people too stupid to fill out a form or are trying techniques some bloke at Wetherspoons said would help.

My advice would be something like

QUOTE
Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your letter.

I am very sorry that I exceeded the speed limit and placed other road users in increased danger. On the day in question, we had just heard that my M-i-L had died and were travelling to the airport to get the first available flight.

I usually always strictly obey speed limits and was shocked that, due to the stress, I exceeded the limit on this occasion. Please find enclosed a copy of the death certificate and flight bookings. If you are able to bear this in mind when deciding how to dispose of the offence I would be very grateful.

Yours faithfully,

Mr Pokambuku


As NewJudge says, remember you are appealing to someone quite possibly keen to get to lunch or get home, not magistrates who have the luxury of time. If you can give them a good, quick reason to take no further action, they may be more likely to be amenable.

Or they may just be spiteful gits and give you a FPN anyway. Doesn't cost anything to roll the dice!
Porambokku21
Thanks both, that makes sense. Will do.
NewJudge
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 5 Jan 2022 - 02:11) *
If you are going to do it make it short and sweet, and certain that it is mitigation.

I think that certainly has some merit and may stand more chance of success than the lengthy version. You could still attach the copy documents you mentioned. Do let us know the outcome.
Porambokku21
Hello All, Just as an update to this, I posted the letter along with the Driver declaration forms on the 09/01/22 and am yet to receive any reply. Is this a normal delay, concerned if their deadline will be missed.

I couldn't track it as I only used a second class service sad.gif

The Rookie
It typically takes 2-3 weeks to get a reply, so nothing to worry about yet.
roythebus
It could take up to 6 months to get a reply.
Porambokku21
Ok, thanks guys..
Porambokku21
Hello All,

It is with great pleasure that I'd like to share the news that my notice has been cancelled. The letter says under the circumstances in which the offence was committed allows for the cancellation in this instance.

I'm very grateful for all the support and help that the people here have kindly rendered to help me in this situation.

I guess this could be a case that does indicate that the authorities can be understanding of the circumstances in which an offence is committed and possibly a bit of luck was also on my side.

Thanks again to all who spared their time, truly appreciate it. smile.gif
The Rookie
Congratulations, it does at least show they read and take note of the contents of such letters and are, despite many suggestions to the contrary, human beings.
Porambokku21
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 17 Feb 2022 - 13:36) *
Congratulations, it does at least show they read and take note of the contents of such letters and are, despite many suggestions to the contrary, human beings.


Absolutely, again this could also be partly due to Covid factor as well which had a huge impact on the time!

Having said all that, it is neither acceptable nor worth the risk to get into a speeding offence no matter what the circumstance is, personally lessons learnt smile.gif

NewJudge
Well done and thanks for letting us know. I must say I am very (pleasantly) surprised.
Logician
Well done, I am very pleased to hear that the police were prepared to adopt such an approach, you wrote a good letter and presented the evidence to back it up, so this was a very personal success for you.
andy_foster
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Thu, 17 Feb 2022 - 13:50) *
Having said all that, it is neither acceptable nor worth the risk to get into a speeding offence no matter what the circumstance is, personally lessons learnt smile.gif


If I knew that that was your opinion, I would never have tried to help ;p

Many years ago. my Dad was rushed to hospital from the local Health Centre and the doctor told me to prepare myself for the worst. I put Mum in the ambulance with Dad and went to pick up my brother. The fastest I went was about 120 as that was all the conditions would allow. Once Dad had been given some antibiotics and fluids he was a lot better, but if the same happened again I would do the same. Whether or not I would be treated leniently if I was caught would not have any bearing on it.
Porambokku21
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 17 Feb 2022 - 19:01) *
QUOTE (Porambokku21 @ Thu, 17 Feb 2022 - 13:50) *
Having said all that, it is neither acceptable nor worth the risk to get into a speeding offence no matter what the circumstance is, personally lessons learnt smile.gif


If I knew that that was your opinion, I would never have tried to help ;p

Many years ago. my Dad was rushed to hospital from the local Health Centre and the doctor told me to prepare myself for the worst. I put Mum in the ambulance with Dad and went to pick up my brother. The fastest I went was about 120 as that was all the conditions would allow. Once Dad had been given some antibiotics and fluids he was a lot better, but if the same happened again I would do the same. Whether or not I would be treated leniently if I was caught would not have any bearing on it.


smile.gif Glad everything ended well at that time for you. I understand and do agree to a certain extent that some times the situation / circumstances dictate our actions however, what if something worse had happened to you because of the 120 speed, I'm thinking more along the lines of risking our life than about consequences of the speeding offence.

btw, thanks for your help with this, smile.gif

QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 17 Feb 2022 - 16:31) *
Well done, I am very pleased to hear that the police were prepared to adopt such an approach, you wrote a good letter and presented the evidence to back it up, so this was a very personal success for you.


Although it may sound a little like a personal success, it was purely down to the likes of Newjudge, Rookie and few others who were generous with their support and assistance. Crucially their support was more realistic and always prepared me for the worst rather than trying to say words of hope, which I felt was the key and even the letter was reviewed and signed off.

So in summary it is a combined effort and success although the benefits were personal to me smile.gif
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