PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 09:10
Hi there,
I had a PCN come through the post on Saturday from Parking Eye and before starting my appeal I have a few questions to ask (sorry if they've already been covered on here). Firstly though, I must say that this forum seems a goldmine of information and you're doing a fantastic job!
Do I have the grounds to appeal as I didn't pay to park in the car park for 20 minutes? This wasn't done intentionally I genuinely didn't see a pay machine or a sign nor did I think at 9:00 pm at night a charge would be applicable. I've never not payed in a car park before and would always if I knew I had to do so. I feel £60 or £100 is a ridiculous amount for a genuine mistake, so I am going to appeal using the great information I've seen on here.
The first thing I've noticed is that a few websites state that the PCN must be issued within 14 days of the event taking place yet the PCN I have received wasn't issued until 16 days afterwards and I received it 20 days after the event. Would this be a valid point to raise in the appeal? I wasn't sure if the fact it has been Christmas and New Year would alter this at all but I don't see why it should.
The PCN has gone to the registered keeper of the vehicle which I am not (but I am legally covered to drive said vehicle). At this stage is it wise to state that I was the driver or simply just not offer this information out yet?
Finally, if I appeal through Parking Eye (unsuccessfully) and then appeal through Popla and loose would I still only have to pay the £100 or would the charge be increased by Parking Eye?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I'd like to get my facts right before I proceed.
Thanks!
Jlc
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 09:27
QUOTE (PrettyAnnoyed @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 09:10)
The first thing I've noticed is that a few websites state that the PCN must be issued within 14 days of the event taking place yet the PCN I have received wasn't issued until 16 days afterwards and I received it 20 days after the event. Would this be a valid point to raise in the appeal? I wasn't sure if the fact it has been Christmas and New Year would alter this at all but I don't see why it should.
A postal PCN (A Notice to Keeper) must be delivered within 14 days of the parking 'event' - the Xmas post is their bad luck. Yes, this is a valid point of appeal, specifically that they no longer have the right to pursue the keeper as they have failed to meet the conditions to do so.
QUOTE (PrettyAnnoyed @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 09:10)
The PCN has gone to the registered keeper of the vehicle which I am not (but I am legally covered to drive said vehicle). At this stage is it wise to state that I was the driver or simply just not offer this information out yet?
As above, they have sent a late notice to the RK who was not driving. They're snookered. There's no requirement to name the driver - more so now as they've missed the boat to pursue the keeper.
QUOTE (PrettyAnnoyed @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 09:10)
Finally, if I appeal through Parking Eye (unsuccessfully) and then appeal through Popla and loose would I still only have to pay the £100 or would the charge be increased by Parking Eye?
The keeper should challenge that the notice was late, the amount is an unenforceable penalty that is not representative of their loss and they should stop writing to the keeper and pursue the driver instead.
If they reject then they must issue a POPLA code. The £100 charge won't increase even if lost at POPLA - if it gets that far...
PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 09:37
Ahh that is great to hear! Thank you for the fast response!
I'm going to start my letter of appeal shortly, If I get stuck on anything I may have to bug you once more but I think I know what to put in writing.
Thank you very much for the help!
nosferatu1001
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 09:40
Dont "appeal" - challenge.
Youre challenging their right to ask for any money, ever. You're challenging their ability to offer parking (theyre not usually the landowner, and almost certainly will not have been granted landowner rights), youre challenging that any contract was entered into as the signage (whcih is all that can even attempt to convey a contract) was inadequate for the task, and youre challenging that their invoice for £100 is actually then attempting to penalise you, as opposed to simply rectifying a genuine loss.
It's a different mindset. Go into this realising their business model is not a legitimate one, but a construct designed to fleece money from people who dont understand that companies can act in such bad faith.
ManxRed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 09:41
It should be appealed by the Registered Keeper, stating clearly that they are the Registered Keeper and indicating that they were not the driver. That would be part of the appeal, tying into the fact that the Notice to Keeper was delivered late and that they cannot now continue to pursue the Registered Keeper (along with the 'loss' issue).
I guess it's OK for you to compose the appeal, but it should come from the Registered Keeper.
PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 12:04
Ok thanks guys, they're very useful comments as it's a first time for me writing to actually challenge anything so it's much appreciated!
PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 12:26
Regarding the fact that it has been issued after the 14 days, if someone could be kind enough to help me with the wording regarding this I'd really appreciate it as I'm not too sure what to put for that part and I want it to be a strong challenge.
Many thanks!
ManxRed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 12:31
1. The Notice to Keeper was received outside of the 14 day limit imposed under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, and hence you have not met the criteria necessary to hold the Registered Keeper liable for this charge. You must now pursue this with the driver of the vehicle. Any further pursuit of me in connection with this charge will be deemed as harassment and action may be taken against you and your principal accordingly.
PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 12:32
Excellent, thank you very much!
PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 13:49
Here's my letter guys, let me know if I've included too many points as I've taken a few off the forum that I've seen that I though might be relevant.
Dear ParkingEye
PCN REF: XXXXXX/XXXXXX
I am writing with regards to your speculative invoice dated XX/XX/XX. I am challenging this parking charge as the Registered keeper on the following grounds.
1. The Notice to Keeper was received outside of the 14 day limit imposed under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, and hence you have not met the criteria necessary to hold the Registered Keeper liable for this charge. You must now pursue this with the driver of the vehicle. Any further pursuit of me in connection with this charge will be deemed as harassment and action may be taken against you and your principal accordingly.
2. You do not have the legal capacity to offer contracts at the location
3. The sum demanded is a punitive charge and a penalty. The Invoice is a punitive charge and is a penalty disguised as a speculative invoice.
4. The amount that you have demanded cannot possibly represent a genuine pre-estimate of any loss to your company. If it is to be believed that the sum demanded is from an invoice in relation to breach of contract then the sum demanded is not a Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss. Should you disagree please provide a breakdown of liquidated costs. Of course these cannot include staff wages, uniforms and general businesses expenses which would have been incurred anyway.
If you believe differently and that the keeper is indeed liable, send the validation code to refer the matter to POPLA where I will require disclosure of the terms of your contract that you claim to provide land-owner rights.
Yours faithfully,
Thanks
ManxRed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 14:01
That looks good, they may well cancel first time.
Come back if they don't.
matt285
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 14:21
They normally cancel immediately if you send them a strong first appeal. Your draft looks like such a strong first appeal. Should all go away soon.
Albert Ross
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 14:30
With all of the greatest respect to the Posters, I do not think that that is the right advice.
It sounds to me on my reading that it is a hired or lease car and that the Hirer? has forwarded the OP's details to ParkingEye to ReIssue a NTK as allowed for under SS13 of Schedule four of POFA.
The appeal as written is still good although I would remove both instances of 'registered' as it is already admitted that they are not.
If I am correct. There are other documents which also need to be given to the OP; to be relied upon by ParkingEye as a valid Notice.
matt285
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 14:41
Well spotted. The OP should change all references to "Registered Keeper" into "Keeper". Because the OP was not the Registered Keeper of the vehicle, but only the Keeper. Whether he was also the driver or not is another matter which he does not need to give away.
PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 14:41
Hi, the car is my parents but I am legally insure to drive it if that helps. Does that change anything? Thanks
Gan
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 14:59
As the registered keeper wasn't driving and can prove that ParkingEye failed to meet the POFA requirement I'd keep the challenge very crisp.
Dear Sir
Ref *****
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle.
I was not present at the alleged parking event.
Neither was the driver acting under my directions.
I note that the Parking Charge Notice was sent sixteen days after this date.
Your statement that POFA entitles you to hold me liable is therefore clearly untrue.
If you cancel it, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that this is an innocent mistake.
Yours Faithfully
Signed by your father
Jlc
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:08
Yes, seems usual process - the registered keeper is presumed to be the keeper unless proven otherwise.
Albert Ross
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:09
Did your parents name you at a different address as being the driver?
Or just given the out of time NTK to you on the day when they themselves received it?
If it is the latter it is out of time and your parents could just reply to them stating that they were not the driver; they refuse to divulge who the driver was and that the notice is out of date to hold them liable.
PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:14
It was the latter, they just gave me it when it arrived in the post and no one has been named etc. Ok that makes things much simpler then, should I still ask for a POPLA code incase they reject it?
nosferatu1001
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:17
No, as they cannot pursue the RK at all now - theyre out of time. In fact if they send one through you can argue they are misrepresenting the legal position - which they WELL know - by still suggesting the RK can be held liable.
Their only options are to pursue the driver, or cancel. If the RK never names the drivcer, they are going to struggle to name them.
Albert Ross
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:27
Use Gans Letter above.
ParkingEyes website will not give a receipt or acknowledgment of an appeal using that means. I would write it out put it into a envelope and send it second class at the post office and obtain a free certificate of posting while there.
PrettyAnnoyed
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:30
Ok thanks for all your help! I'll send Gans letter to them highlighting the error of their ways
PrettyAnnoyed
Tue, 20 Jan 2015 - 18:19
Urgh, just received basically the same letter as before from Parking Eye so they took no notice at all. What's my next step then guys? Thanks for any help!
Gan
Tue, 20 Jan 2015 - 18:54
Dear Sir
Ref ****
I note your letter dated ****
I refer you to my challenge dated **** that the Notice to Keeper had been sent after the deadline to hold me liable under POFA had already passed.
A copy is enclosed
Don't contact me again unless it is to confirm that the parking notice is cancelled
Any other response will be unlawful and reported to DVLA as deliberate abuse of their database.
I reserve the right to invoice your company at £18/hr - minimum £100 - for my wasted time if DVLA confirm my complaint
Acceptance of this condition is by performance - rejection of my challenge
Yours Faithfully
PrettyAnnoyed
Tue, 20 Jan 2015 - 23:35
Ok thanks for that! Will try that one
PrettyAnnoyed
Thu, 29 Jan 2015 - 23:04
Just received this letter and they claim the POFA date doesn't apply. Any help with this? Thanks!
Jlc
Thu, 29 Jan 2015 - 23:26
Did the first letter claim PoFA did apply?
Of course they can go 'off piste' and use the 'reasonable assumption' that the keeper was driving but this is a first for them...
Regardless, a denied appeal means a POPLA code must be issued.
nosferatu1001
Fri, 30 Jan 2015 - 10:25
I would suggest you write back, confirming that they have written back and as such, you will invoice them for your time.
The first invoice is enclosed.
You may want to suggest that, if they are going to quote court cases, this suggests they should issue a claim within 14 days, or you will consider this to be closed.
Gan
Fri, 30 Jan 2015 - 11:02
Combined Parking Solutions v Thomas has a significant feature that affected the decision
Mr Thomas presented the court with forged documents to support his claim that there was another driver
The judge wasn't going to let him get away with that
Could point this out to ParkingEye and suggest that, if they want to quote cases, ParkingEye v Somerfield says that they're a deceitful company that sends misleading letters and any payment is owed to the land-owner, not their company
Gan
Fri, 30 Jan 2015 - 13:54
Have just looked back through the thread
Your previous letter to them said that you would charge at least £100 if DVLA upheld a complaint
The next move for your father is therefore obvious - complain to DVLA
PrettyAnnoyed
Fri, 30 Jan 2015 - 15:18
Thanks guys! I'll continue on with that information
momon121
Sat, 25 Apr 2015 - 19:24
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 12 Jan 2015 - 15:59)
As the registered keeper wasn't driving and can prove that ParkingEye failed to meet the POFA requirement I'd keep the challenge very crisp.
Dear Sir
Ref *****
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle.
I was not present at the alleged parking event.
Neither was the driver acting under my directions.
I note that the Parking Charge Notice was sent sixteen days after this date.
Your statement that POFA entitles you to hold me liable is therefore clearly untrue.
If you cancel it, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that this is an innocent mistake.
Yours Faithfully
Signed by your father
Hi Gan, sorry to quote on this thread but I could do with your help. Please I have posted a message on the forum. Would you be kind enough to have a look please
Kind Regards
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